{"id":2156,"date":"2016-10-20T01:52:04","date_gmt":"2016-10-20T01:52:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/?p=2156"},"modified":"2018-12-13T09:55:39","modified_gmt":"2018-12-13T09:55:39","slug":"conscience2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/codependent\/signs-codependency\/conscience2\/","title":{"rendered":"Please Tell Me I&#8217;m Good"},"content":{"rendered":"<h2>Codependence &amp;\u00a0Conscience<\/h2>\n<h3>Our Narcissistic\/Codependent Society<\/h3>\n<p>In today\u2019s show we discuss codependence\u00a0&amp; conscience; how codependence is formed and how it tricks us into feeling lost and empty inside.<\/p>\n<p><strong>On YouTube:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"wpex-responsive-media\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"container-lazyload preview-lazyload container-youtube js-lazyload--not-loaded\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/TS9T4s42BKo\" class=\"lazy-load-youtube preview-lazyload preview-youtube\" data-video-title=\"Codependence &amp; Conscience\" title=\"Play video &quot;Codependence &amp; Conscience&quot;\">https:\/\/youtu.be\/TS9T4s42BKo<\/a><noscript>Video can&#8217;t be loaded because JavaScript is disabled: <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/TS9T4s42BKo\" title=\"Codependence &amp; Conscience\">Codependence &amp; Conscience (https:\/\/youtu.be\/TS9T4s42BKo)<\/a><\/noscript><\/div>\n<p><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\" style=\"text-align: center;\"><a title=\"The Narcissistic\/Codependent Marriage\" href=\"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/\">Do Our Free Introductory Tutorial<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\" style=\"text-align: center;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/blog\/\">Find Out More About Our Members Area<\/a><\/p>\n<p><strong>On Sound Cloud:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"wpex-responsive-media\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Codependence &amp; Conscience by Kimcooperncm\" width=\"980\" height=\"400\" scrolling=\"no\" frameborder=\"no\" src=\"https:\/\/w.soundcloud.com\/player\/?visual=true&#038;url=https%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F289082676&#038;show_artwork=true&#038;maxheight=1000&#038;maxwidth=980\"><\/iframe><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\" style=\"text-align: center;\"><a title=\"The Narcissistic\/Codependent Marriage\" href=\"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/\">Do Our Free Introductory Tutorial<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\" style=\"text-align: center;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/blog\/\">Find Out More About Our Members Area<\/a><\/p>\n<h4>Show Transcript:<\/h4>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hi everyone.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Welcome to our Narcissistic-Codependent Society.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>I am Steve Cooper, and with me today is my lovely wife, Kim Cooper, author and expert on narcissism and codependence.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>A big \u201chi\u201d to everyone who has found this show.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Steve, your introductions are very flattering lately.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Thank you (smiling).\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hey, it\u2019s my pleasure.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 \u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Today, Kim, we are continuing on the subject of conscience. In our last show, we discussed narcissism and conscience\u2014and all the comments are still coming in.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yes, Jennifer said that the show was very interesting, and thank you for that, Jennifer.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Anna liked some of the distinctions that we had made, and also mentioned that while she always feels that she has followed her conscience, she feels that having improved her self of self-worth means that she would make better decisions now than in the past.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>She wondered if maybe all consciences are not equal, and maybe some can be healthier than others.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>She also suggested maybe it\u2019s a matter of having the keys and knowledge of how to handle various situations.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That is an interesting point, Kim.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Maybe we can get back to that in a moment.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yes, but first, Leslie thanked us for the show, and said she had reposted the bit about families not expecting that a narcissistic partner\u2019s healing shouldn\u2019t be just about them giving more to their partner.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>As we mentioned in the last show, a big part of overcoming our narcissism is learning to be honest when we might need to disappoint someone.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Leslie also brought up the concept of an external locus of evaluation, which we will get into in a little more depth in this show.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>I\u2019d like to just summarize the last show, if I may\u2014not to stop anyone going back and listening, but hopefully just getting the message as clear as we can.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Basically, you were saying, Kim, that you feel as though narcissism develops when a person feels that they cannot meet the expectations that are placed on them, and that because they also feel those expectations are in some way unfair, this ends up allowing them to rationalize cheating, other things to get ahead, or other vices to soothe themselves.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, that\u2019s basically it, in a nutshell. I think that the really ugly part is that once this pattern starts, they need to keep someone in the role of persecutor in their life, because if things stopped being unfair, they would actually have to start competing fairly again.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Right.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>You mean they need to feel like they are a victim just to justify their own behavior to themselves.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s right.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>This is why they can be very oversensitive to anything they can grab hold of that maybe makes them feel like they have been victimized. <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 \u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>I guess that makes a lot of sense, Kim, because if you are in a situation where you are feeling a little bit guilty about cheating\u2014let\u2019s just say you are a narcissistic type and you are feeling bad about cheating\u2014it\u2019s easy to say, \u201cOh, well, I\u2019m a victim of this horrible thing that happened to me in the past, and that\u2019s why I started cheating.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>It\u2019s not really my fault.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>I\u2019m the victim here.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm. Yep, that\u2019s right.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, so that\u2019s a bit of a bad pattern.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But then what happens if the situation turns around and you don\u2019t really have anybody victimizing you anymore, but you are still cheating?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Right.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Because you have developed a pattern for cheating.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yep.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So then you have to start looking for someone to play the role of persecutor.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Right.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Even though you are not being persecuted.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s right.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.)<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, right.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So it becomes a real, you know, poor way of relating to other people, especially those close to you, because it\u2019s easiest to probably pretend that the people closest to you are the persecutors in your life, in that pattern.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, that\u2019s right.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And often narcissistic individuals, they will even lie about their family and say that their family is mistreating them in ways that maybe they are not, to try and get sympathy and special treatment and special consideration from people outside of the family.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But, back to Anna\u2019s questioning whether some consciences are healthier than others, and her comment about keys and wisdom:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>I think that all of our consciences are probably equal, but that said, there is a lot of ways that things can play out differently. Often, we may feel that we have asked our conscience when really we haven\u2019t and we are really simply just acting out on our own sense of justice, or on our emotions.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Being true to your emotions is something very different to submitting to your consciences\u2019 judgment on something.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>The other difference is our ability to act on what our conscience tells us.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>People who are more intelligent have more cognitive pathways, which just basically means that they can come up with more ideas of how to solve a problem.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But experience is important too.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And I guess experience is going to help you deal with other people in a way that is going to make following your conscience certainly less scary and less dangerous, even.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.)<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.)<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Right.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But in that basic quiet place inside us, I think we all really do know what is right and what is wrong.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>The problem is just that we may not have been educated to tune into that, or we may choose that we don\u2019t want to.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>I\u2019m sure most of us remember a time when we chose not to stop and ask ourselves if something was the right thing to do, because we really didn\u2019t want to hear the answer that our conscience was going to give us.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Right, for sure.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Well, Kim, this show we are going to get a little bit deeper into those distinctions.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, we sure are.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">We are talking about codependence and conscience today, and I am really looking forward to this.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>The reason why, is that I hope in this show we can really get the message out that narcissists are not the sole guilty party in a narcissistic-codependent relationship.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We hear narcissists attacked constantly online, with hardly anyone mentioning that codependent behavior is abusive too, and often really where the whole dysfunctional pattern begins.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I am also excited, because I plan on doing a bit of a plug for the books and support services we offer\u2014which I don\u2019t do on these shows very often\u2014so I hope you will stay tuned to hear what it is we have to offer.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So, Kim, on the last show you described how narcissism begins.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Maybe we can start there with this show:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>How does codependence begin?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Good idea.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">The story of how codependence begins is a pretty sad one, and, you know, the stereotype story is with a drug-addicted or alcoholic parent.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>This child, instead of having expectations to succeed in the outside world\u2014like the narcissistic child did\u2014the expectations on them is really the opposite, and that is that they stay home basically and keep their mom and dad happy.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Or, maybe it\u2019s their younger brothers and sisters that they need to look after and keep happy.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>They are really given the idea that this is what will make them a good person is if they do that\u2014if they keep other people happy.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But really there isn\u2019t any reward for this, and it doesn\u2019t<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>end up making them a good person.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>In fact, it actually often damages them.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>One of the first things that we have seen that it does often damage is their conversation skills.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, for sure.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Because hanging out with an alcoholic or a drug-addicted parent, or with your little brothers and sisters really doesn\u2019t teach a child anything about how to converse well with people outside of their family, and that really can put them at a fairly extreme disadvantage when it comes to them having any kind of real success, rewards, or life outside of their home and their family.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So that\u2019s a warning to all alcoholic parents\u2014please don\u2019t force your children to talk to you when you are drunk.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We can\u2019t tell you to stop drinking, but stop forcing your kids to talk to you when you are drunk, because it doesn\u2019t teach them anything.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.)<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Well, you know.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>It teaches them a bad pattern. <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 \u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.)<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>If you are an alcoholic, certainly we would encourage you to get help for that.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We have always recommended the Health Recovery Center, and their supplements-based approach that really will help relieve cravings and whatever\u2014but I think it is important that you don\u2019t necessarily wait until you\u2019ve got that determination and conviction to stop drinking before you realize that expecting your children to socialize with, or keep you company, or stop you from being lonely, or keep you happy\u2014especially when you have been drinking\u2014really is damaging to them.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Children really need to be exposed to and learn better conversation skills than that in better social situations than that.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">The next thing that I want to mention it damages is this child\u2019s understanding of how emotions are regulated by healthy adults. It\u2019s not normal to have to walk on eggshells around someone else and keep them happy.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Because emotions don\u2019t really work that way, it never really works anyway.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>This child never can actually succeed in keeping this parent or their brothers and sisters happy, and so they are being set up to failure in a game that really also already had no real rewards in the first place.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So, if there isn\u2019t any rewards for that, why do they keep on doing it?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Well, I think the reason is that there are present rewards.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hmm<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And most of these are actually damaging too.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>The child will be told that they are good and special, and even that they are better than other people.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But usually this will only happen when they have really had to take care of their parent in ways that an adult really shouldn\u2019t be needing to be looked after.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And I guess really if this person was so good and special, they would be telling that parent that they needed to take care of themselves better, and that they are sorry they can\u2019t help them if they are going to abuse themselves.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But because the codependent child has learned this pattern of behavior, or the codependent adult has learned this pattern of behavior from childhood, they don\u2019t really ever learn to set those kind of boundaries.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And, in fact, usually even in their adult life, it is really terrifying and it\u2019s really difficult for them to begin to do this.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm. And so through this, how does the codependent become abusive?<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And, more importantly, how does this relate to conscience, Kim?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Well, while the narcissist is self-focused, feeling sorry for themselves and figuring out how to cheat the system that they feel is stacked against them, the codependent actually becomes other focused, and they are really hungry for recognition for the same kind of emotional caregiving that they have been involved in giving to their family.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And so, often the codependent will actually seize on any small bits of external praise that they get, and end up amplifying them in their own mind, and maybe repeating them too often to other people.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>You know, somebody said this nice thing about me; somebody said how good I was.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>I think we all maybe have been there or know people who sometimes do this too often, and it can even be a little bit uncomfortable or embarrassing to be around. (Laughing.)<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm-hmm.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And it also is these bits of external praise end up meaning more than they really do to the person.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And when nothing actually really comes back to them\u2014for taking what, I guess, has really been an enabling role\u2014they usually start to feel angry or desperate that it\u2019s their turn, and that now someone should be taking care of <i>them<\/i>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Right. <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 \u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And then, when this person becomes a parent, they will usually expect that one child in their family\u2014one of their own children will go out and win recognition for the family while the other child will then be expected to stay home and care for them, just like they had to care for their parent.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Or, if they only have one child or their eldest child is a daughter, they might expect one child in their family to actually fill both of these roles.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Right.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And filling both of those roles\u2014that\u2019s what happened to you, wasn\u2019t it, Kim? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, and the confusion that that causes a person and the lack of identity, I guess, is really very hard to live with.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>In the end, I guess, it still was what forced me to examine the conditioning that I had been brought up with, because really the two roles are just completely incompatible.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm. <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But they are both so <i>unhealthy<\/i>, so I guess in the end you were lucky to escape, Kim.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, I was, certainly.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But no matter what anyone says, I think recovery from this is a lifelong process, and if you learned these patterns of behavior from when you were very young, it\u2019s kind of like your instincts have become impaired, and you do need guidance in things that maybe a healthy person would find, you know, came more naturally to them.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But, I still would really recommend and say that it\u2019s definitely worth the effort, because not only will healing help, you know, if you have been through this yourself, or if you can identify what I am talking about here:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Not only will healing help you feel more secure and confident in yourself, it will also help you not to pass on these patterns to your own children.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, that\u2019s so important, Kim.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And what about conscience, though?<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Where does that come into this? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Well, while the narcissist feels that they have been banished from their sort of internal compass because the game is rigged and they really don\u2019t have any idea how they can admit that they can\u2019t do what it is that everybody is expecting of them\u2014the codependent is really in an even worse situation, because the game is basically that you need to care for someone else to be a good person. <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But then, no matter how hard this person tries to be good, they never really end up getting much recognition.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Right. <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 \u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And the little bits of recognition that they do get end up going to their head and end up confusing them even further.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So, eventually, they kind of come to this point where they have invested so much time into being good, that even if people around them start sort of questioning their behavior or try and give them any feedback that maybe they can\u2019t really help this person in all the ways this person wants to be helped, it is still very hard for them to see the truth\u2014which is really that they have actually just been exploited and they are actually really behind in the whole game, and there really isn\u2019t any reward coming.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And I guess the real problem here is that the codependent has actually allowed their parent\u2019s or their teacher\u2019s<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>voice to end up replacing the voice of their conscience.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hmm. Yep.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And they are not looking inside for the loving guidance of what they really need to do to take care of themselves and start succeeding in life. Inside, they feel empty, and that only external praise and guidance is real and valuable.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I think it\u2019s funny that most codependents complain that their narcissistic partner is always craving validation, but really, the codependent is looking for even more than this.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, absolutely. <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 \u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>The narcissist might want people to tell them that they are great to relieve this sort of unrealistic expectations and pressure that they are under, but deep down the narcissist is really looking for a scapegoat.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hmm. Yep.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>They turn on their partner the minute that they get the chance, because they need to make their cheating and their lack of success someone else\u2019s fault.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>The codependent, however, they want everything from their partner.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>They want validation.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>They want their partner to help them with their own emotional regulation.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>They want recognition that they are worthy and good.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And they want rewards for the sacrifices that they have made. You know, they want <i>everything<\/i> from their partner.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, and this obviously puts a lot of unwanted pressure on the narcissist.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, yeah, certainly.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But there is a mistake I want to clear up here.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>You know, I hear some people say, \u201cI want my husband to come with me to this or that, and I shouldn\u2019t be so codependent\u2014I should just go by myself.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm-hmm.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But this really isn\u2019t it.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Of course, it\u2019s okay to want and expect your partner to do things with you.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Codependence is really when you start looking to your partner instead of your own conscience to know what is right and wrong.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, because if your job as a child was to keep someone else happy, I guess you learn to look outside, you know, of yourself for cues and what you need to be doing, and if you are doing the right thing, and if it\u2019s right or wrong.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s it; perfect.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>This is why it\u2019s so essential that the codependent learn to tune into their own emotional signaling system, and also to learn to access their own conscience.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Because otherwise the first thing they are going to say is, \u201cI really want to do this, but I know the right thing for me to do is just to stay home and look after mum.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So, Kim, let\u2019s talk a little bit about our books and services that we offer. <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 \u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Sure.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Well, I guess, the best place to start is on the front page of TheNCMarriage.com.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>There is an introductory, free tutorial there.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We don\u2019t spam.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>If you give us your name and your e-mail address, it\u2019s really just to help us make the process of offering what we teach more enjoyable for you, and so that we can send you reminder e-mails that are sent to you with your name at the beginning of them, and that you can go through the system that we have set up in the right order, so that you get the material in the order that you need to get it.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>The introductory tutorial is not just a sales pitch, which I know is very uncommon these days.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>There really is a lot of very valuable information in that tutorial, I would say, definitely probably even more than a lot of self-help books that you can buy these days with far less padding.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>It will probably only take you 15-20 minutes at the most to get through.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>There is a short movie that is part of it, so that might take a little bit longer, but that is me being interviewed by Dallas, who is part of our team.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>She is a behavioral scientist.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That is on the three things that destroy love, and that you really need to stop doing straight away.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So, all of that is free.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>At the end of that, you will be offered three different introductory specials on our books.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Our books are not expensive in the first place, so once you are offered the introductory specials on them, t hey are really very affordable.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>They are also available by download, which makes them even more affordable.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And they are laid out in a way where you can hopefully fairly easily see which ones are going to be more applicable to your situation.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Our books are quite short and to the point.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>They are designed as reference books that you can go back and access the information that you need quickly and easily.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We don\u2019t really go into a long, boring story about our own story. It\u2019s really just laid out of information that you need and that you can access quickly. I like to pride myself on the fact that I think I write very short self-help books with a lot of very valuable content, where I think too many self-help books out there are very long and, you know, the actual practical advice in them is sometimes fairly meager for the amount of words.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>You are a very considerate author, Kim.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.)<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>You are very considerate of your audience.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>You don\u2019t fill it up with fluff. You write direct and to the point, and keep it entertaining. <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 \u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Thank you.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>I think we\u2019ve had maybe one complaint in eight years, that someone complained that the books weren\u2019t long enough, and they didn\u2019t feel like they had got their money\u2019s worth, but we have had heaps of people tell us the opposite of how much they appreciate the fact that we haven\u2019t been too longwinded about it, and that we just get to the point, and actually try and provide helpful information as quickly as we can, and in a format that is also enjoyable. I mean, a lot of the books have got colored pictures, they are illustrated, they are laid out in bullet points\u2014and, yeah, as I said they are laid out in a way that hopefully they are easy to reference.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We have had quite a few people come back and say that <i>Back from the Looking Glass<\/i>\u2014which is probably our best seller\u2014<i>13 Steps to a Peaceful Home<\/i>.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That is the book you really need if you are in an abusive or difficult relationship right now.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And we have had people say that they have worn out a couple of copies of it, because they have actually gone back to it so, so frequently. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">The next thing is that after you buy any one of these special offers, in about a day or so, then you will be sent an invitation to join our member\u2019s area online.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And at the moment we are really pushing my Master Class.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That will give you additional training in Emotional Intelligence skills, and in what we have been speaking about in this show and in the last one, in how to access your conscience.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We are not pushing any brand of religion or any school of thought.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>This is all information and material that I have gathered from all different sources, and things that I have worked on through trial and error, and that has developed over eight years now.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><i>Back from the Looking Glass<\/i> is now in its 11<\/span><span class=\"s2\"><sup>th<\/sup><\/span><span class=\"s1\"> edition, so we really do take a lot of pride and a lot of time in developing the books and the material that we share with people.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But I think the best part about our member\u2019s area certainly is that it also gives you access to a number of different, secret Facebook groups\u2014which just means that you can converse with other people that are part of that group without it showing up on your timeline with your other friends and family, and the people that are a part of those groups is really a big, warm, very connected family now.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And we all know each other, and we all support each other.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>It\u2019s a very protected space online, which I think is quite uncommon these days.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>I think it\u2019s a really wonderful forum you have set up, Kim.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>It\u2019s a very warm place, you\u2019re right, and people do feel like they get a lot of value from it.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>It\u2019s very difficult when you are in a situation where you are unsure about what step to take with your family next.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And if you\u2019ve got to the point where you are learning about codependence and narcissism, and listening to our podcasts, it\u2019s really important that you take the time to give it your best.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>This is a wonderful study time for you.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Do your best now, take the time to do what\u2019s right, and learn some of the amazing Emotional Intelligence techniques that Kim has on offer.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Because really, this is a lifelong journey.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>You know, if you are 20, or 30, or 40, or 50\u2014how many years have you spent learning and reinforcing these bad patterns of behavior?<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Realistically, you are only going to learn better patterns of behavior and healthier ways of interacting if you surround yourself with people that you can converse with and that you can turn to for help, support, and advice so that you are not relying on your, you know, <i>impaired<\/i> instincts (laughing), or your faulty instincts, to keep making the same bad decisions that has led you to where you are, where you may be really questioning whether you want to remain married or whether you have made a mistake or whether maybe it\u2019s time to divorce.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But saying that one of the rules of our forums and support groups is that nobody is going to judge you, and nobody is going to put pressure on you either way.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We really consider that whether a couple remain married or divorce is their decision and their decision alone.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We may give you help and advice of how to keep yourself safe, of how to keep your children safe. You know, you may be encouraged to make some tough decisions about things that won\u2019t always be completely easy.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Simple, but not always easy.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But really, it is a rule in our forums that nobody is just going to come in and say that you are just an idiot if you don\u2019t just divorce him (or her), which is what we usually hear on the support forums for narcissism and codependence, and I really don\u2019t feel like it is very helpful.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>You will never get any kind of abuse like that on our forums, we promise you that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Thanks everyone for tuning into our Narcissistic-Codependent Society.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We look forward to talking to you next time.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And, hopefully we will meet you on the forums soon!<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\" style=\"text-align: center;\"><a title=\"The Narcissistic\/Codependent Marriage\" href=\"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/\">Do Our Free Introductory Tutorial<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\" style=\"text-align: center;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/blog\/\">Find Out More About Our Members Area<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In today\u2019s show we discuss codependence &#038; conscience; how codependence is formed and how it tricks us into feeling lost and empty inside.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":2160,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[12],"tags":[107],"post_series":[83],"class_list":["post-2156","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-signs-codependency","tag-podcasts","post_series-podcasts","entry","has-media"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2156","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2156"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2156\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/2160"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2156"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2156"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2156"},{"taxonomy":"post_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/post_series?post=2156"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}