{"id":2146,"date":"2016-10-18T00:09:10","date_gmt":"2016-10-18T00:09:10","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/?p=2146"},"modified":"2018-12-13T09:56:13","modified_gmt":"2018-12-13T09:56:13","slug":"conscience","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/narcissismcured.com\/thencmarriage\/narcissist\/signs-narcissism\/conscience\/","title":{"rendered":"If the Game Wasn&#8217;t Rigged I&#8217;d Win"},"content":{"rendered":"<h2>Narcissism\u00a0&amp;\u00a0Conscience<\/h2>\n<h3>Our Narcissistic\/Codependent Society<\/h3>\n<p>In today\u2019s show we discuss narcissism &amp; conscience; including our ideas about how the narcissistic personality is formed and ends up avoiding doing what&#8217;s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>On YouTube:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"wpex-responsive-media\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"container-lazyload preview-lazyload container-youtube js-lazyload--not-loaded\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=FavBcJTfcyE\" class=\"lazy-load-youtube preview-lazyload preview-youtube\" data-video-title=\"Narcissism &amp; Conscience\" title=\"Play video &quot;Narcissism &amp; Conscience&quot;\">https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=FavBcJTfcyE<\/a><noscript>Video can&#8217;t be loaded because JavaScript is disabled: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=FavBcJTfcyE\" title=\"Narcissism &amp; Conscience\">Narcissism &amp; Conscience (https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=FavBcJTfcyE)<\/a><\/noscript><\/div>\n<p><\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">Kim&#8217;s Master Class<\/p>\n<p><strong>On Sound Cloud:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"wpex-responsive-media\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Narcissism &amp; Conscience by Kimcooperncm\" width=\"980\" height=\"400\" scrolling=\"no\" frameborder=\"no\" src=\"https:\/\/w.soundcloud.com\/player\/?visual=true&#038;url=https%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F288744148&#038;show_artwork=true&#038;maxheight=1000&#038;maxwidth=980\"><\/iframe><\/span><\/p>\n<h4 class=\"p1\" style=\"text-align: center;\">Kim&#8217;s Master Class<\/h4>\n<h4 class=\"p1\">Show Transcript:<\/h4>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hi everyone.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Welcome to our Narcissistic-Codependent Society. I am Steve Cooper, and with me today is my wife, Kim Cooper, online author and expert on narcissism and codependence.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Thanks, Steve.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yes, I\u2019m an expert because I have been both in my life, certainly (laughing).<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But hey, darlin\u2019, we\u2019ve come a long way.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We sure have.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">In our last episode of our Narcissistic-Codependent Society, we broke tradition and talked about religion.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>It\u2019s not our normal subject matter, but it did create some discussion at last. Kim, I was absolutely fascinated at your ability to talk about the Book of Job and its relation to social justice. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Thanks Steve, we had a comment about judging people, and how we are all told that it\u2019s bad for us to do this when really we all do judge people, and really it\u2019s natural.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">We also had a comment about the need to be honest about what our conscience is really telling us, which is exactly what these next two shows are going to be all about.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">We also had a few comments basically agreeing that yes, our beliefs should be determined by our conscience and that when other people force their beliefs on us, it really doesn\u2019t end up sitting well.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Basically, all I want to add to that is that our last show on Codependence and Religion was not that we shouldn\u2019t judge. That was really not the message in it. If anything, I think it was the opposite, and that a close reading of the story of Job that we dissected in that last show is actually saying that we need to judge the highest and lowest in our society by the same rules.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And just because someone is a leader or wealthy doesn\u2019t put them above scrutiny.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And just because someone is poor or has faced hardship doesn\u2019t automatically make them less in God\u2019s eyes. If someone has indeed brought hardship on themselves and others by their own misdeeds and irresponsibility, maybe we do need to stop lending them a hand.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And, I think maybe as parents, sometimes we are faced with those kinds of tough love decisions.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But likewise, if our leaders are being irresponsible by taking advantage of people more vulnerable than themselves, we also have an obligation to stop supporting them as well.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Jesus might have said to turn the other cheek, but he never said we should lack valor by turning a blind eye.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing). Yeah, right, Kim. Absolutely.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So, from a society level, this means, I guess, allowing avenues for whistle blowers and accountability for our leaders. You know, that doesn\u2019t see people who speak up for what\u2019s right wind up tortured or in jail.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Exactly. And that as a community we start finding the courage to stand up for what\u2019s right and stop supporting people who are promoting what\u2019s wrong.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Well, there is plenty of that about. And that leads to today\u2019s show, which is all about right and wrong.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I\u2019d like to start, Kim, by offering this: I just think at the moment, in this modern age, there is very little encouragement to do what\u2019s right. And there is very little encouragement to think about what\u2019s right, faced with a dilemma. What\u2019s right? What\u2019s right in my heart?<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>What\u2019s right for everybody around me?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We are not encouraged to think like that. We are not encouraged to take the time to think like that.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>No, I don\u2019t think people talk about it much anymore. I remember as a child growing up going to church, you know, we talked about conscience a lot. And we talked about the ideas of listening to your conscience. I even learned that denying your conscience was the unpardonable sin. But, I don\u2019t know, it\u2019s a really long time since I\u2019ve heard the idea that we really need to stop and think about what\u2019s right and wrong discussed at <i>all<\/i>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And, even worse, Kim, I think it\u2019s almost like a taboo subject: Oh, what\u2019s the right thing to do? If everyone doesn\u2019t talk about what\u2019s wrong, we might pretend that it\u2019s not happening or something. There is an understanding amongst society that if we ignore what\u2019s wrong, well, we will all be okay. You know, you might say, look, I\u2019m not sure if that\u2019s the right thing to do. So often people will come along and say, yeah, but it\u2019s realistic. And we are often faced with this kind of dilemma that society places upon us.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And I think we see it in the workplace a lot, that we are often feeling as though a lot of people have to do a job that they don\u2019t really feel good about, but they are doing it to get paid.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So, you know, okay, well I\u2019ve got to get my paycheck, so I have to go through with this awful process, whatever it is (laughing), where I am having to sort of rob people of their hard earned cash, or, you know, kill animals, or whatever it is that people don\u2019t like doing in their work, but they are doing it because it\u2019s realistic. Because it\u2019s the realistic way to make a paycheck.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, I think that\u2019s really common. And if people even bring up the concept of what\u2019s right and wrong, they are told it\u2019s unrealistic.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.) Yeah, right. Well, there\u2019s no time. There\u2019s no time to think about what\u2019s right.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm. Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s one I hear all the time.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>It\u2019s all just about what is going to make money, not about what\u2019s right.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And that\u2019s a real dangerous path to go down, I think, Kim. Because your family is not there to make money. Your good quality connections with each other are not about creating profit.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>You know, you can make money with people and have a good relationship with people while you are making money, sure. But that is not the central theme to why you have good relationships.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah, that\u2019s right.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So, we are told more and more now, that success in our society is really just about making money, and nobody seems to really be talking about doing what\u2019s right. But, the research really doesn\u2019t back that up, because when you look at people who consider themselves successful and have lived to a ripe old age, most all of them will actually say that success is really about the quality of relationships in their life. I would say that is something that definitely, really depends on us listening to our conscience.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You know, if you are somebody that can send your conscience away and justify doing the wrong thing too often, I think that really definitely is going to impact badly on your relationships, not just with other people, but with yourself. Because, really, to me conscience (and this is something I have spent a long time researching) is really all about our relationship with ourself. It is all about our integrity \u2014 our personal integrity. It\u2019s about us feeling good about ourselves. It\u2019s about us feeling worthy. And that is really always there for us (laughing). It\u2019s always available to us. But I think there is a faulty idea out there about conscience, that is that it\u2019s going to hunt you down, and it\u2019s going to haunt you . . .<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>. . . and, you know, we have all these sayings about conscience, which make it sound like something that is an active force; where, you know, most of the ancient texts <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>and wisdom I have been able to find on conscience, all really describe it as the opposite.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>It\u2019s something that is really quite passive, and something we need to go looking for, and we need to be prepared to submit ourself and our plans to. But if we do that, it\u2019s always available to us (laughing), and that connection with our integrity and with our self-worth and with feeling good about ourselves, and being able to choose a path that gives our life meaning is always there.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s interesting, that you describe conscience as a passive force, Kim.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s really, really interesting for me, because, you know, we can\u2019t take it with us. It\u2019s not like anybody\u2019s conscience is better than anybody else\u2019s. It\u2019s not an asset.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Well, I\u2019m not sure exactly what you mean, because I think we can take our conscience with us \u2014 it\u2019s with us all the time \u2014 and I would say it\u2019s very much an asset, probably one of our most important assets.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But . . . <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>I mean, you can\u2019t convert it for cash . . . <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.)<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>No.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>. . . at the bank and go to Brazil.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.)<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>No.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.)<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.)<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But you know, it\u2019s actually a lot more valuable than that, because it\u2019s that connection with our own integrity, or even with our righteousness if you want to call it that \u2014 of feeling that we are right, or even knowing that we are doing the right thing and that we are on the right path.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>I don\u2019t think that is something you can really put a monetary value on. I just think it\u2019s a real shame that it\u2019s not being talked about that much anymore, you know, at a society level. This is really a problem that I see, is the fact that we are not talking about it. And I think too often it\u2019s confused with guilt, or it\u2019s confused with shame. And these really are quite different things. They are emotions, and guilt and shame might hunt you down, and guilt and shame might haunt you, certainly.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But that\u2019s usually more involved with you being scared of being found out and being scared of being discovered.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s a really important distinction, Kim, I think, because, you know, guilt and shame are sort of the things \u2014 they are scary.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And they do play on your mind. And I think you have described them before as intrusions.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>When you have bad memories from the past, they are called an intrusion. Sort of \u2014 ooh, you cringe when you think about it. It\u2019s sort of something that you feel embarrassed about.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But that\u2019s not your conscience.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>No.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s guilt, and shame, and embarrassment, and fear that other people are going to judge you badly. <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 \u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s right. And there are still things that we need to look at, certainly. But, look, in my Master Class, we do a lot on conscience and how to actually access your own conscience, and how to get back in touch with your own internal guidance system of knowing in yourself what is right and what is wrong.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And, you know, this is really extremely valuable. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But getting into conscience and narcissism.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Look, um, I want to tell a little bit of a story, Steve . . . <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE: <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm-hmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>. . . about how I kind of see the narcissistic individual or the narcissistic personality being formed, if you like, in a sort of stereotype story kind of idea (laughing).<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Why not. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And then we can get into the ways that I see the narcissistic personality denying their conscience, and the excuses that they make to not listen to their conscience. And then in our next show, we might do the same for codependents.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So, I always get a picture in my head when I think about the narcissistic person growing up of this movie that we used to watch when the kids were younger called <i>The Point<\/i>.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>It\u2019s quite an old movie now. And it sort of applies and sort of doesn\u2019t. You know, it\u2019s a little bit different at the end. But what happens in this movie is there is this young boy (it\u2019s an animation, sort of like a fairy tale) and the land where he lives there is this, is he a count or, I don\u2019t know, some guy who is in charge of the whole land. He is very narcissistic.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And the young boy is quite good at this game that they play, which is called Triangle Toss, and he is really the best at it. But the count\u2019s son, who he ends up beating, is very vindictive about the fact that the boy is better at Triangle Toss than him. And this ends up where he is actually banished from the whole kingdom. And in this story of <i>The Point<\/i>, he kind of handles that okay, and he goes through this whole, sort of slightly psychedelic even, adventure that really has, you know, some nice meaning in it. But I think in real life, it doesn\u2019t really always work out that way. You know, the playing field isn\u2019t always equal, and it\u2019s not as easy to succeed out there as sometimes maybe our parents or the people around us would like to think. And I think that a narcissistic child often is somebody who is beautiful and intelligent, and they have a lot expected of them.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Because I really see narcissism and codependence as a <i>system<\/i> dysfunction, we have to actually look at those unrealistic expectations as part of the system dysfunction. Because if a child doesn\u2019t feel like they are able to come back and say to their parents, or their teachers, or the people around them, \u201cHey, you know what: It isn\u2019t really fair, the game is rigged and I\u2019ve done my best, but I am having some problems.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hmm.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 \u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And it might be because of the kind of nepotism in the story of <i>The Point<\/i>. Or it may just be because this child has some hidden disability that they don\u2019t want to admit to, and so they are hiding this kind of shame. Which, this pattern of hiding shame is really a big one in narcissistic behavior. So they may learn this early from the beginning because maybe they are actually dyslexic or they have some learning disability. But they want to hide this, and they still get through school by being charming and sweet talking their teachers, and sort of avoiding the rules. And eventually, this kind of leads to this symbolic, I guess, kind of banishment, like in the story of <i>The Point<\/i>, but really it\u2019s an internal banishment, where the child can end up losing contact with their own conscience, and losing contact with their ability to actually talk about what they feel is right and wrong. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And, I am not putting all the blame here on society, but I think that society \u2014 and particularly parents \u2014 we really have to be aware of this, and we do have to take some responsibility. Because if we don\u2019t have those avenues open for our children or for people within our society to be whistle-blowers, or to come and say, \u201cYou know what, I really have given it my best, but it\u2019s not fair and the game is rigged\u201d; or, \u201cI am having problems and I am sorry. I know you are really expecting a lot of me, but I don\u2019t really know if I am going to be able to do this. And I don\u2019t know if what you are asking me to do is the right thing for me to do. I\u2019ve got some questions about that.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">If we are always just telling our children that they have to do what is going to make them successful, and what is going to win them glory or what is going to win them rewards, rather than actually taking the time to talk to our children<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>and ask them, you know, do you feel this is the right thing to do. And <i>encouraging<\/i> our children to actually plug into their conscience. Well, we are going to just keep going further and further down this path of turning into a society where really not many of us any more are feeling proud of living in it, because all around us we just see we are living in a world that <i>isn\u2019t<\/i> doing what\u2019s right, and that none of us really feel that good about.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And that brings me to think about what it means to be narcissistic. I think that somebody who is a narcissist is more often than not \u2014 let\u2019s just say 9 times out of 10 \u2014somebody who feels as though they have unrealistic expectations placed upon them . . .<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>. . . from a very young age or from a not so young age \u2014 it doesn\u2019t really matter. There is unrealistic expectations that can\u2019t be resolved, as you just explained, Kim.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">That leads to very poor decisions, and it leads to rationalising of bad behavior as well. If somebody feels as though they have these expectations to succeed and to thrive, but they don\u2019t have that inner strength that you were just talking about there, Kim, and they have doubts \u2014 well it\u2019s too easy then to rationalise bad behavior.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Or it\u2019s just not possible, you know, what is being expected of them just isn\u2019t possible.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yep.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So, if it\u2019s not possible, then they feel like they are a failure and it can lead to some kind of breakdown.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Or it can lead to cheating, lying, manipulating \u2014 you know branch stacking (laughing).\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.)<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>All the terrible behavior we see.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So this is where the narcissistic person sends their conscience away and loses . . .<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s right.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>. . . or becomes banished . . .<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>. . . when they lose that connection with their conscience, because they start saying, \u201cIt\u2019s not fair and the rules are not fair. So, if it was a level playing field, and if it was fair, I\u2019d be the winner.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE: Hmm. That\u2019s right.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But then, who can judge, you know?<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>You start losing all accountability then, because if you play that game in your own mind, well, you don\u2019t have to work anymore, you don\u2019t have to try anymore. And it kind of justifies you cheating. And because you see yourself as a victim \u2014 which I think all narcissistic individuals <i>do<\/i> see themselves as victims \u2014 it also means that you can start to rationalise behaviours that may be considered as vice, because, you know, you are so hard done by, and because the game is stacked against you, and people are expecting more of you than you can really give, that you can justify all sorts of things because you feel sorry for yourself.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm-hmm.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s right.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And rampant individualism has become the modern experience for all of us here in the West. We are encouraged to be ultra successful, to win at all costs. We are encouraged to read self-help books to improve ourselves as people, which really all that equates to is that you are just learning to be better in business . . . <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(Laughing.)<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>. . . more useful in the corporate structure. That is, a better performer\u2014somebody who can remain fit and work longer hours.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s right. Most of the self-help books are about being more successful, which means making more money. . . <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>(laughing)<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yeah (laughing).\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>. . . not about actually doing what\u2019s right, and feeling better about yourself.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s exactly right.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And rampant individualism has become the form of <i>abuse<\/i> of us as people, by the people at the top of the food chain, as we like to call them.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hmm.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And those people at the top of the food chain will encourage us to be selfish and <i>not<\/i> to do what\u2019s right. They encourage us to do what is <i>realistic <\/i>\u2014 and what is realistic is to earn money in a job that they want you to do, in order for them to make money.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So, it\u2019s a bit of a drastic scenario I have painted there, but it really is about what we are trying to get at \u2014 what\u2019s right? What\u2019s right in your heart?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm. This problem just goes through our community.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But back to a <i>family<\/i> level, I don\u2019t think that we can really solve this problem until we start taking some responsibility for not expecting so much of each other, and having more realistic expectations of each other.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Hmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>The narcissistic individual really can\u2019t heal until their family around them realises that maybe some of the expectations that they have of them are not realistic. We work in this area all the time, and usually the rest of the family is expecting that when the narcissistic person gets better, they are just going to be polite to everybody and they are going to be this Prince Charming and Hero, and save everybody. They are not ready for the idea that the narcissistic person healing is usually about them being able to admit their feelings of insecurity and their feelings that they can\u2019t really meet the expectations of the people around them.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And, so, there really is trust building that is necessary . . .<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Yep.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>. . . so that the rest of the family creates an environment of trust, so that this child or individual is able to say, \u201cUm, you know what, I don\u2019t think I can do what you are expecting of me, and there really are some problems, because the way this is set up isn\u2019t fair, and, you know, I don\u2019t know whether this is even the right thing for me to be doing, what you are expecting of me to do\u201d.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So this is a two-way street.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And as a society, we have to create avenues for the problems, and the inequality, and the lack of fairness in our system to be addressed. Because if there isn\u2019t any outlets for this, if we can\u2019t come forward and say, \u201cYou know what, I think there is a problem and my conscience is telling me that everything is not right with the way this is set up and the way this is being run\u201d. Well, then, you know, we end up in that sort of symbolic feeling of being banished. How do we deal with it?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And, you know, as individuals I think we can eventually really work at coming to a sense of strength, where we are able to maybe disappoint the people around us if we need to and say, \u201cYou know what?<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>My conscience is telling me this and I really need to follow this, and I\u2019m sorry if that disappoints, you, but I have to be true and honest to myself\u201d.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And, you know, that takes a lot of courage. And that takes a lot of strength. But really, that is what overcoming narcissism looks like.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So someone who is about to overcome their narcissism is faced with that reality, aren\u2019t they, Kim?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That they have to start disappointing the people around them (laughing). And that\u2019s not something that a narcissist usually likes doing. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>They usually like to be the Prince Charming and Santa Claus all in one. But learning to disappoint people is about doing what\u2019s right, and that is, \u201cOkay, I can\u2019t be all of these things. I have to disappoint you\u201d.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm. Well, I have seen you do that a few times successfully, and I have been proud of you when you have.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And Kim, I feel like I\u2019ve just got time to tell one more story about that. I think that, you know, doing what is right often changes. And for me, an experience was that many years ago, Kim encouraged me to go and play football again. She said, \u201cCome on, you\u2019ve got to get some more contact. You\u2019ve got to get out, you\u2019ve got to do something and meet some people\u201d. And I said, \u201cOh, I don\u2019t know, you know, I\u2019m getting old . . .\u201d And you really encouraged me, Kim, and it was great. I met a whole bunch of people, and it was one of the best things I ever did. I got out, I was playing football again, and I was training, and I met a whole bunch of guys, lots of families, and it was all wonderful.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>But then, after four or five years, more and more was expected of me. I was expected to arrange evenings, and I was expected to drink with the boys a lot. There was trips away that I was really encouraged to come along on the trips away \u2014 all that sort of stuff. And I just had to get to the point where I had to say, \u201cYou know what, guys, I just can\u2019t play this year\u201d.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>They said, \u201cOh, what are you, injured?\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p4\"><span class=\"s1\">\u201cNo, no.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>I just don\u2019t have time for this anymore.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>This was great and this was fun, and I loved this, but I don\u2019t have time for this anymore. It has become something else, you know. It has become a drain on my time, and everybody is expecting too much of me.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And it was working against your conscience, because your conscience was telling you that you really couldn\u2019t afford to give all of that time to the football club \u2014 you really needed to give more time to your family?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>That\u2019s right. And things did change over time. I was expected \u2014 well, I did have more responsibilities with our business, as our business evolved, so there was a reality check there for me, that I did have to look at it. And it was difficult, because I disappointed a lot of people. And, you know, I lost a lot of friends over it (laughing). But I\u2019m actually happier because I did that. That process was really empowering for me.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Because I think it was partly me overcoming some narcissism \u2014 and also some codependence as well.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Mmm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>You know, it was about me saying, \u201cNo, you know, what is right for me now is if I step away and give more time to my family, because I have given the club enough\u201d.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Well, I think that is the really important message in all of this, is that it <i>is<\/i> really possible to reconnect with our conscience at any time. We have to be discerning and not get our conscience confused with our ego, or our emotions, or \u2014 there is a saying, \u201cEverything you want sounds like a good idea\u201d (laughing).<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>This is really not what conscience is about. It\u2019s a quiet space, it\u2019s a passive thing that <i>we<\/i> need to go look for.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And it\u2019s about saying, no really, what is the right and wrong thing to do here \u2014 not just for me, but for everyone. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But the good news is is that really does remain available to us, wherever we are, and, you know, no matter how far we might have gone down the wrong road in that kind of figurative banishment, I think it\u2019s always there for us, and we always have that choice we can make to actually reconnect with it. And we can go and search <i>it<\/i> out, and say, \u201cNo, what is the right thing for me to do\u201d.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Now, if we have gone a long way down that road of banishment, that may get harder and harder, because turning around and deciding later down the track that we are going to start suddenly doing the right thing might mean we need to make a whole lot of, you know, changes in our life \u2014 and some pretty big changes. And those changes may disappoint the people around us. But really, you know, it\u2019s important that we learn to overcome that fear and find that courage to say no, because really at the end of it all, what is most important \u2014 what <i>really<\/i> is success in life? That connection with ourself, that feeling that we are doing the right thing by ourselves, and doing the right thing by our conscience \u2014 I really don\u2019t know anything that gives the same quality of life and really ultimately a feeling of meaning and success in your life than that.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Well, I know what the right thing for me at the moment is, Kim, and that is to help you get to bed earlier.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>So we should wrap up this radio show so you can edit, and we can get you to bed.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Thanks everybody for tuning into our Narcissistic-Codependent Society.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Please join us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook \u2014 join us, join the conversation, please. That\u2019s why we do this. We want you to talk to us, we want to hear your comments. We want to get the conversation started.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">KIM:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>And take the time to like the show on YouTube, if you like it \u2014 and yeah, we really do want to hear from you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">STEVE:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Thanks very much.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>We can\u2019t<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>wait to talk to you next show, when we are talking about codependence and conscience.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Good night.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\" style=\"text-align: center;\">Kim&#8217;s Master Class<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In today\u2019s show we discuss narcissism &#038; conscience; including our ideas about how the narcissistic personality is formed and ends up avoiding conscience.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":2147,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[44],"tags":[107],"post_series":[83],"class_list":["post-2146","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-signs-narcissism","tag-podcasts","post_series-podcasts","entry","has-media"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v28.0 - 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